B Lab Forces For Good Podcast — Episode 6: Will the green transition work for workers?

The green transition needs to lift people up—not leave them behind.

For every new solar farm, wind turbine, or sustainable factory, there are workers—retraining, adapting, and making the transition real. But what happens to those left behind? To the communities that relied on fossil fuel jobs? To the workers who need new skills but have no support? In this episode of Forces For Good, Andrew Prag from We Mean Business Coalition unpacks how businesses can drive a transition that works for people, not just profits. Marina Gning, CEO of B Corp ApiAfrique, is proving this in Senegal, where she’s creating good, sustainable jobs and showing that economic justice must be at the center of climate action.

Listen now to explore:

• How businesses can drive a just transition that puts workers first.

• Real-world examples of companies creating sustainable jobs while building a green economy.

• Why economic justice must be at the center of climate action.

Tune in to Forces For Good and discover how businesses can drive a Green Transition whilst putting workers at the center: https://lnk.to/Forces-For-Good-Green-Transition 

TRANSCRIPT: Season 3 — Episode 6: Will the green transition work for workers?  This is Forces for Good, a podcast from B Lab, the nonprofit network powering the global B Corp movement. I’m your host Irving Chan-Gomez.

Forces for Good takes a hard look at how businesses are helping to solve the biggest social and environmental challenges of our time. 

We're excited to be back with season 3 to dive deep into what makes a good job. 

Have you ever heard someone say they're "going green"? It's when you change your lifestyle to reduce environmental impact. 

Glaciers are melting. The ocean's temperature is rising. Crops are failing. Natural resources are low.  But, all hope isn’t lost. More people are going green to help create a sustainable environment. And while our personal contributions are important, like recycling, or buying reusable products—they are not enough. 

Climate and environmental issues must be tackled on a global scale. This is called the Green Transition. And business has a critical role to play. 

Andrew Prag: We had a great moment a year ago when we were really trying to rally business support to push the UN climate negotiations towards taking a decision on really transitioning away from fossil fuels.

That's Andrew Prag. Managing Director for Policy at the NGO, We Mean Business Coalition. NGO stands for non-governmental organization. We Mean Business funds and supports climate change issues on a large scale.

Andrew: We are an international NGO, but we work with businesses to really try and move the needle on climate change to drive greater action, both from the businesses themselves, helping them understand what it means to be corporate leaders on climate change, and then also using their voice to push policymakers to make policies, which are driving things in the right direction, allow the leading companies to lead and help to regulate the laggards and bring them up to speed. So we sit at this interface of business and policy and just trying to identify where would it make a difference to have businesses come forward and say to policymakers, we want this, we want to see this difference’ where can a positive business voice speak louder than the negative lobbyists who are trying to slow things down and really move things forward? 

We Mean Business has a framework called the 4a's of climate leadership. 

Take the ambition to combat climate change, and put it into action, advocacy, and accountability. 

Andrew: We have this notion, we call it the ambition loop. Businesses are prepared to step up and take action and show governments that they're taking action and say, look, I'm not only do I want this, I'm actually doing it. But I need policy to go further. Then that emboldens the governments and gives them confidence to enact policies. Just then, this pushes more businesses to act, and then those businesses push the government and you get a kind of positive cycle. So that's our theory of change, it keeps us going, gets us outta bed in the morning But  always looking where businesses can make a difference for the better. 

The Green Transition is a global effort for economies to go green. To shift away from fossil fuels. To use more sustainable resources. Change consumption patterns. These changes need to happen at every level. Personal, global, business, governmental. 

We're going to talk about the government's role later. But for now, let’s take a trip to the west coast of  Africa.  In Senegal, there is a business that is championing these sustainable practices…for the planet, and their workers. 

Marina Gning: So ApiAfrique is a social company here in Senegal. It actually it started in France 15 years ago when I had my second daughter and I was as a mother, I was really thinking of what is the word I'm going to leave to my children.

That's Marina Gning. CEO of the Bcorp, Api Afrique. She began her business in France,  selling reusable baby diapers. When she moved the business to Senegal, they expanded their product line to include even more reusable products. 

Marina: My husband is from Senegal. After a while, we saw that there was something to do in Senegal with these products, but that would be too expensive for the population to buy those important products. So we decided to manufacture products here in Senegal. We wanted to create some local jobs here in Senegal, and we wanted to show that it's possible to make great quality products here in Senegal. We wanted to change the narrative a little bit about Africa too. Like Africa is not always a poor place in the world with of problems. We also have a lot ogood things. And I must admit that it would be very difficult for me to live in Europe again. 

So, one of my goal as well was to tackle this health problem, because that's something it's quite strange, but over the African continent, all the health issues are always taken care of by the NGOs. And I really want to make a business that has impact, but that still is a business that still has an economy, that still doesn't depend on what is trendy at the moment to finance because otherwise you always are linked to the people who have the money. And I saw that so many times in Senegal, like great project starting, but stopping because the financing was finishing. So  I said, no, I'm going to do great things, but I'm going to do it as a business. Here, the waste problem is huge because you see the waste everywhere on the beaches, on the roads, the animals eat the waste, the people. Fishes eat the waste, you eat the fishes, you eat the animals, so it's huge. We also have a problem with all the trees cut everywhere. We don't get enough rain, it's hot, we have the problem of the sea level that is coming nearer and nearer all the houses. So we decided to work on the waste problem, waste and empowerment, it goes together.

ApiAfrique has tackled these problems head-on. Showing the world what is possible to achieve in Africa, and helping local communities thrive. 

Marina: We started the local manufacturing as well to show that it's possible to manufacture in Senegal. And all our mentors told us, you're mad. Manufacture in China, sell in Africa. Manufacture in China, sell in Africa. And we were like, no, we want to create jobs in Senegal and we want to show that it's possible. And it hasn't been easy, of course, because when you decide to do something that is not really done yet, then you don't have the machines, you don't have the fabrics, you don't have the talents. So now after eight years, I think that we're really proud of what we have done, and I feel as well that it's not me or my husband who will build the future of Senegal and who will tackle all the climate problems that we have.

It's a new generation that is coming. We're trying, in our company, to do as much as we can in training and in empowering people who are working with us, but it's not going to be enough. So if I see the big picture, I'm like, what we're doing is very small. Now, if I look to the individuals, then I see a lot of people that they have lives that have changed. 

Companies and policymakers need to take into account the community aspect of this transition. It's not just about product, and resources. People need sustainability too. 

Andrew: So it's not a natural thing, maybe for a business to think about the impacts of the wider communities where they operate. But that's all part of understanding the impact that a company has. And so one of the first steps we encourage companies to take is to need to understand what are the broader societal impacts of, firstly, the company existing at all. And secondly, what does that look like if they transitioned towards low carbon, just to rethink through which communities they're impacting, what actions can they take themselves to alleviate that, and also what can they do to push governments to put better support schemes in place to help the people who will always be affected.

You can't say this will be completely perfect for everybody. So making sure that those who are affected, their impacts are mitigated as much as possible. 

Andrew shares tips for companies who want to join this transition, but don't know where to start. 

Andrew: In terms of how the organizations think about their own kind of just transition, well, firstly, we try and encourage them to think of this as not just something they have to do, but as an important part of their business case, but for a lot of businesses, that means thinking beyond the normal perimeter that they would look at, because they may see that it makes sense to take care of their workers and really think about a transition of the workforce if they are going to switch from a high carbon activity to a low carbon one, for example. Then, when we are training people and making sure that they're not just firing people to hire new ones, but that there's a transition plan in terms of training people there.

But then it means looking beyond their normal scope of operation. So suppliers, often, are small businesses at the supply chain who may suddenly find themselves losing contracts because they're deemed to be not good enough on the climate front or have a high emissions factor for the product that they're supplying. And because the big company at the bottom of the chain is now having to look at what we call scope three emissions, so all of the emissions up at supply chain, they have to think about, well, it's not just about, as quickly as they can reducing the emissions from that supply chain. It's about doing that in a way, which is equitable to the companies and the small businesses up that chain to consider the impact on suppliers and what they can do to support them in making that transition rather than just suddenly divesting from one supplier moving to another one. 

A just transition means that everyone is considered during this shift. It helps create good jobs. Especially for the frontline workers most impacted by climate change. 

Businesses should provide advancement opportunities for workers—instead of giving the job to someone else. But it doesn't stop there. There's more businesses can do. 

Andrew: I think on the jobs and workers fronts, we firstly really tried to make clear to the companies we worked with that's embarking on a transition and making sure that it's a just transition. It's not something they should do just to be a good corporate player. You know, this is actually good for business. And this is the long term business model that depends on maintaining the kind of social license to operate and the respect of customers and investors, but also of the workforce and the communities that they work in. So we really encourage companies, firstly, you have to be engaging in a transition at all, which is not a given. And then secondly, making sure that it is just in both cases if you don't do the transition, you'd lose this social license, we'll end up getting regulated out of business. And then if you embark on a transition, but don't really focus on the justice elements, and the wider communities that are engaged with that company, then they will also over time lose the social license to operate.

And that's a very important to part of the business case and in terms of the jobs and workers, it’s very important for companies to realize that it's not just a kind of net jobs game. Like, you could point to models that show it's fine because the energy transition is going to create however many million jobs, and yes, some jobs will be lost. But to really protect and encourage and inspire workers, you have to show that it's the same people who have the opportunities. It's of no interest to someone who works in a coal mine to know that somebody else is going to get a job in renewable energy. And it’s making sure that the retraining, the reskilling, upskilling programs are really in place, that they're really thought through that there's sufficient elements of geographical specificity.

So that if people need to move, then they're supported in moving, and companies can do a lot themselves to do this and also to push governments to provide public incentives as well to support this beyond what individual companies can do, 

When businesses are aware of their workers' problems, and do their part to help, it can have a powerful impact on workers's lives. This is good for business. 

Marina: We have many women in our company and most of them didn't go to school. They never left their family house. They still live in the house where they were born. So having a job, bringing some money at the end of the month, having a voice in the company to say when you agree, when you don't agree, to be able to give you ideas in meetings. For us, when we come from Europe or other countries, it's natural, but here it's like huge steps, so sometimes when I see these girls that have started with us, and they couldn't look at you in the eyes and they couldn't speak and now they can do that, and they tell you that now they're respected in their family because they bring a salary at the end of the month. This is huge. But I'm always like in the middle of the big picture and I feel that is very small what we're doing. And when I look at individuals, then I feel that is huge.

I think in the countries here, policy is very important. We need the government to go in this field and we need regulations. Because here, when you need anything, you go to the nearest little shop that is near your house, you walk to this shop, you don't have a choice. If you go there and everything is packaged in plastic, well then you buy plastic. You cannot say, I'm going to the local market product that is zero waste, you cannot do that. So I think it's only regulation that can make big changes. If the government says like Rwanda, for example, no plastic, then they will have to adapt and then they won't use plastic, but if there is no regulation it will keep increasing, and then t's a bit hard for us as a social company, we cannot tackle this problem all alone.

Marina's right. Businesses can only do so much. Individuals can only do so much. Government policy can only do so much. They all need to work together to push solutions forward. 

Andrew: I was really struck by Marina’s point to the importance of regulation and policy, which I absolutely agree with at all levels, in fact, that's how I personally got into policy work at all. Cause at the outset, I originally started my career joining a big energy company and you know, we're going to achieve the energy transition and then realize that actually, this has to be driven by regulation and policy, both the incentives to encourage people to do things and then the regulation to force those who aren't changing, while not impacting people and not making people more vulnerable and not increasing inequalities and so on.

I really fully subscribe to this notion that the importance of well-designed policy and regulation really, really matters in terms of what industries have to change. I mean, all of them really, frankly, there's every industry you look at, there's so much more that can be done in this transition, both in terms of purely on climate change, on energy use and impacts on forestry and land use, but then also around material use and circularity and waste.

While businesses, governments and NGOs work through this shift, workers need to stay top of mind. There's many ways to do this. 

Andrew: I think there's so much that can be done by just rethinking the kind of business models that are out there. And we work with a lot of big companies who are doing great strides to improve the impact of the business that they do, if they're a big consumer goods company or big online retailer or furniture company or whatever. But what's really interesting is particularly the young people coming into the workspace with ingenuity and new tools, how can we completely rethink the business models that are out there?

You see it happening all the time, just rethinking how we get around, it's about mobility. It's not about owning a car or even renting car, it's about different ways you can connect people to get them where they want to go. It's about new forms of services instead of owning stuff or new forms of sharing amongst communities or business models around repair instead of new stuff. And I think there's so much more that can be done in that fresh blood industries that just rethink what's the ultimate service we're trying to provide here. And how can we do it in completely different ways to where I take kind of hope that business can radically reduce emissions right across the value chains.

And I think AI has quite a lot of role to play in that too. I do hear a lot about AI and the energy use it requires and will require, and it's huge for sure, but it's potential to optimize processes and just redesign the way that we do things to get the services that we need is, I hope we can find ways to optimize that and overcome both its energy use components and also its the impacts it will have socially to help us solve this climate problem at least. But yeah, there are some areas where I take kind of inspiration and encourage.

Since she started her journey as an entrepreneur, Marina has learned a lot about making an impact. Here’s her advice for aspiring business owners….

Marina: My first advice would be to start all the impactful things from the beginning because it's much easier to put all these efforts at the beginning with a small team. Then when you're big and you have to change habits for a thousand people, it's easier to do it on five people. So start from the beginning with your very small team. And my second advice is not to stay alone. I think we're many to think that we have a great idea and that we will do a revolution with our idea. This world now is too big. We are faced with big companies, big things. Everything is huge and you cannot tackle that alone. So now I'm really, personally, each time I want to put a new project into action, I'm just looking, who is working on that area already and who can I work with? And I think it's really a problem every new entrepreneur has, he wants to do it alone in his way. And that's where it's too hard and where you're losing money and energy. So start from the beginning. All the impact that you can and then go with others, do partnerships, partnerships, partnerships in everything that you do.

Before we close, we want to address the people and businesses that are resisting this transition. Luckily, even with resistance, progress continues. 

Andrew: It's important you flag that the sort of anti-ESG, anti-climate movement, which I think is a sign in some ways of the success and the advancement of this transition. And that those who don't want to see it happen have to resort to these kinds of anti-measures because it is good business in many cases. And to do that, one of the partners in our coalition in the US who did an amazing campaign last year called the freedom to invest and just sort of using the freedom idea that in fact, it doesn't make any sense. If you really stand for freedom as a value, then you shouldn't be preventing a company from looking at ESG or social environmental values, and how they invest. That's their choice. If it's good business, then they do it anyway. And there are ways to kind of try to counter this movement, but it's really a sign of how important and how much momentum there is behind the transition that that movement is there. 

When things are changing for the better, and on a larger scale, we need to be sure the smaller communities and individuals aren't left behind—especially those on the front lines of climate change.

There’s no future for any of us, if we don’t think about our planet’s future. Our well-being and our planet’s wellbeing go hand in hand.

Addressing social and environmental issues as one, will help this remain a just transition - securing the future for all.

If you’d like to learn more about B Corps and purpose-driven companies, visit BCorporation.net. Subscribe, rate, and review the podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. Your support helps Forces for Good reach new audiences.

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The views and opinions expressed are those of the interviewees and do not reflect the positions or opinions of the producers or any affiliated organizations.

This podcast was brought to you by B Lab in partnership with The Gates Foundation. Special thanks to Sherri Jordan for coordination. Forces For Good is produced by Hueman Group Media.

I’m your host, Irving Chan-Gomez. Thanks for listening, and see you next time!